I'm thinking people should be responsible for THEMSELVES. If they choose to drink and then drive. Different if someone at the bar sees them get in a car and start to drive.
Last weekend there was a terrible accident, with 4 young people, 3 were killed instantly (the one who wasn't was the only one wearing a seat belt). Now it's coming out that they "may" have been at a bar, and "may" have been drinking. Right before the accident.
The poilce on the news saying they were investigating and interviewing people, etc.
Of course the one person who survived the accident would know. And, it would only really matter if the driver of the car had been drinking.
Bad curve, and speed and alcohol.
Kids grow up with DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE. They know what happens if they get caught drining/driving. They know there's a chance they will die (and if they ride with someone who is drinking)
One of them was 19 (I know bars get in trouble for serving underage, even if they have a perfect fake ID) Hasn't come out yet is she, or all of them had been drinking. Says the toxicollogy texts will take several weeks.
But, they are considering pressing charges against the owner of the bar, they "may" have been drinking at. Criminal charges (like manslaughter?)
I know all the sides and aspects of this. There's also the owner (who is young with a family) and people who work there. And, whether young people were drinking and left openly intoxicated, and someone LET them leave, and get in a car and drive.
I'm just thinking that anyone (any age) should know better, and be responsible for THEMSELVES. And their driving, or riding in a car with someone after drinking.
I know... alcohol clouds judgement and reasoning, and people who are drunk usually feel great and like they can do and handle anything.
But, if it's that bad, and bars are going to be charged criminally, if someone leaves and drives, maybe there shouldn't BE bars. Because everyone can't be watched and followed home to make sure they get there safe.
Don't want to start a war with this, but just heard it on the news and "kids" that age should know better. (it hasnt' been established they were drinking at the bar, maybe they stopped in to see friends, or the driver came to pick up the others or something)
If it can be proved they were served at this bar, being underage then the owner/bartender should be charged with serving a minor.(that's all IMO) I realize that if all these facts are true that the drinking probably contributed to the accident but I also feel that is not the bar's fault criminally. It's a tough call & I have mixed feelings about it. I'm not sure if I agree that bars should be legally responsible for seeing that people don't drink too much. It makes more sense to me that if one person in the group is a non drinking designated driver then that person should be legally responsible to see to it that the drinking person does not drive. If the drinking person refuses to give up the keys, don't get in the car with them. If they are drunk, cause/have an accident & this designated driver knew they shouldn't be driving but let them do it anyway then THEY are responsible not the bar.
My son had the Don't Drink & Drive lecture all thru his young years. One night he had been out drinking & his friend hadn't so he let his friend drive his brand new Jeep. This friend tried to beat a red light & the person coming in the other direction had the same idea. Bye Bye new car.
I think the bar can only be held responsible so much. If a bartender sees the same person coming to the bar and ordering a drink every hour or so and is obvvoisly intoxitcated, he/she should cut him off and make sure he/she is not driving. To me, it's the same as a "designated reporter" situation, like school employees having to reoport abuse of a child. They are a professional and need to recognize the situation. Drunks should not be out on the road,period. If you choose to drink, don't drive. Call a cab or friend or family member you know is sober to pick you up.There is no reason to drive drunk. No one should lose their life because of drinking and driving. Saddest is the poor innocent victim of a drunk driver. It's a needless crime, and so sad on all accounts, because you know the drunk driver never meant to hurt or kill anyone.
I completely agree with Calgal ! She said it all !
Mary Ann/Birdbug
It is something to think about and not really all "cut and dried".
In this case (the accident with the young people) it wasn't like they had spent the night at the bar drinking then left to drive. Though seems like the one surviver of the crash would be able to tell the story (and he wasn't the underage one, and wasn't driving. Otherwise w might think he's afraid of getting into trouble himself) He might be charged with LETTING the one who was drinking (he rode with) drive?
There are just reports that the group "might have been" at the bar, before the accident, and "might have been drinking" there. The bars are usually so careful about IDs, doesn't seem like they'd serve the 19 year old. (from what 's been written on her memorial Facebook, she was very tiny, like a 12 year old child)
It's like someone has to be to blame. The driver of the car was one of the ones killed. Otherwise he could be charged. Also they can't give the ones who died tickets for not wearing seat belts.
The only one who survived (with minor injuries, treated and released) was the only one wearing a seatbelt . I'm thinking, since the other two (not driving) were a couple, they were probably in the back and the survivor in the passinger side in front and put his seatbelt on.
Just when it comes down to it, young people (and old, for that matter) have to be responsible for themselves. They could have bought a case of beer and parked somewhere and drank (would the store they bought it at be held responsible?) Someone was drinking and decided to drive. If the others were drinking (have to get tox reports back) they got into the car with someone who had been drinking.
It's a long country road (few years back it badly needed repaving and was done, and now all smooth. AT the time they debated the speed limit, saying it has the potential for speeding because of how smooth the surface now is. Like people who drink and speed care what the speed limit is?)
This was a bad curve. Coming down a hill and going around a sharp curve. Anyone from the area, who used the road a lot (it's a well used road) would know it. Though probably wouldn't remember or think about it, when flying along the road, down the hill at 1AM
They all apparently "just didn't think". All the years of hearing about drunk driving and getting into cars with people who had drank, etc.
Why not hold the auto manufacturing responsbile? WHY ARE CARS MADE THAT GO SO FAST when most places the speed limits are 50-60 or less?
A car that hits has less chance of going off the road on a curve, going 20-30 than at 80-100? And a car that hits a tree going at a lower speed has much less damage.
Ultimately, I think we all have to be responsible for ourselves and our own actions.
People have to be responsible for their own actions. But bar owners are not to serve underage no matter what. And, they are not to serve someone that has already had too much to drink. It is a tough business to be in. You can preach don't drink and drive forever, but some do it. Many families go through this with their kids and/or grandkids. Kids know it all; never going to happen to them. Been through it.
Let every day be a good day!
Someone has to take responsibility the drunks can't or won't.
Same as if I had a party and someone got drunk on my booze and went out and killed someone, I can be held responsible.
Resa, that's why we don't serve alcohol as anything we host. If you bring it in, it's your problem. Any bar has the right to refuse service. If you know they are falling down drunk, you don't have to serve them. If someone gets a good fake ID, how would you know they weren't of age? I think if someone presents a fake ID, they should be charged with fraud, same charge as passing a bad check and here, that isn't a cheap offense.
I had my annual Christmas party a few years ago, and people were invited by someone else, (They asked of course) I didn't know them too well, most who come here are family and close neighbours, They will enjoy a drink or two, but most are walking and the regular family members have designated drivers, they all know how I feel about this,
these people showed up 2 adult women with 3 little ones, I thought they were going outside for a smoke, :( They had booze in their cars, it was obvious one was totally wasted compared to the drinks served, Thank goodness all was well and they got home OK But I shiver to think how many times they do this, and it only takes once for tragedy to happen:(
No I had no control, but I still could have been charged, Maybe not convicted but we could have been charged, not to mention the guilt we would feel, warranted or not,
drunks will drive no matter where they are getting their booze.
Most bartenders know the code. I had a few friends that were bartenders, and when they know what to look for, and when to stop serving. They also know that if someone seems to be too drunk, they are supposed to call a cab for the person. However, drunk people can sometimes become foolish enough to start arguments, and run off in their cars because their judgments are impaired.
I don't drink. Don't feel the need to be any stupider than I already am when I'm sober, and besides I hate the smell of alcohol and beer. :)
Resa_NS: Same as if I had a party and someone got drunk on my booze and went out and killed someone, I can be held responsible.
And I don't really agree with that either. How are you, as an individual, going to FORCE someone not to drive home. They are going to insist they are fine and not drunk, etc Seriously what are you going to do to keep them from driving.
Seriously what are you going to do to keep them from driving.
I guess you can call the police.
I know someone who did this, someone was sitting in a private (apartment building) parking lot (in the car) drinking. Someone else was worried he MIGHT drive after (though he might have slept in the car or called someone to come get him, he had a cell phone)
The police came and arrested him for DUI (apparently if the key is in the ignition they assume you are GOING to drive and charge you. Still don't see how they can call it DRIVING under the influence)
Turned into a real mess, fines, loss of license, probation for a year, expense (going to drunk driving classes) lost so much time at work the car was repossessed). Still trying to get out of it. And, it ruined a relationship, between the people involved.
The person who called the police thought they were doing it to help him. Though he had never been known to drive after drinking before. The police are there to HELP PEOPLE, right?
So, I think anyone who knows what happens when the police come would think twice about calling them to stop someone from driving drunk. Even if you know the person is going to drive, like you see them get in the car and start it and drive off (not just sitting in it)
Though, of course, the person who chooses to drink is ultimately responsible. So, why is drinking legal and actually encouraged in some ways? The States and Feds depend on the taxes collected from it? I guess the fines and fees, etc that result from violations must help, too. And gives jobs to people (probation officers, drunk driving class facilitators, alchohol counsellors, laywers, etc)
I once read if everyone who drinks, who is underage didn't (couldn't get it, no one would buy it for them, etc) this would be a BIG cut in the money collected from the sale of alcohol.
Same with cigarettes, you think "they" reallly want to stop underage smoking? Everyone, no matter what their age, who buys alcohol or cigarettes pays the huge taxes on it.
I started drinking when I was 24, I don't drink away from our property but have driven on our private roads and property after a drink....I can tell the difference!!!!
I don't believe in places where people are served wine, whiskey, beer, etc. and they arrive there by driving. I would support a "drink at home only" law :-) We have a open container law here, that means no open bottles cans or say a six pack with only five left in it in a auto. Get rid of cell phones use in cars, just as many are in accidents and die from using cell phones and the non use of seat belts as those who do from booze. Of course second hand smoke kills more than all of those who die in ALL automobile wrecks :-(
Terry
Freesoulbackagain:
Instead, the minor should be held accountable for presenting a fake ID, and the manufacturer of that ID should also be held responsible. Bartenders can only do so much.
Good points, the whole post is good.
I'd have said this myself, but seems like if I do (say things like this) I get jumped on and lectured about drunk driving and all.
Of course, in my example we don't really know what, if anything the surviver has said. And they haven't gotten the toxicology results back.
The underage girl might not even have been drinking. Actually, they might not all have been drinking (or a lot). Speed and the bad curve might have been enough.
But, regardless of what happens next, the bar has been implicated (in the media) and this will be remembered.
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